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Home Forums Member Mods Ref: Mod #82: Air Conditioner Hard Start Capacitor

Ref: Mod #82: Air Conditioner Hard Start Capacitor
Page: 1
UserPost

10:53 am
August 17, 2009


mlbeep

Mod Newbie

Hoagland, IN

posts 5
1

(this is a continuation of previous postings…and I need help!  :)

mlbeep (August 15th, 2009 at 9:12 am)

I just tried this exactly as posted.
I am NOT an electrician, not even close…
I have a 2010 Dutchman Denali 292RKX-DSL with an optional 15K A/C.
I switched out the original relay (a CSC unit marked 10.0uf +/-6% 370VAC/B) with a Supco SPP6E. VERY easy swap, only changed out the connections on the Supco with male flat terminals to mate with the A/C unit.
Returned power and the A/C fired right up, but noticed it was running about 1/2 speed. Changed it to high-speed, and still sounded really slow.
I swapped back to the original relay.
On the back of the Supco unit is says (in red) “SPP6E Recommended for 1/2 to 3 h.p. 170-277V 88-106 mF”
The SPP4E is 90-130V but only recommended for 1/8 to 1h.p.

I don’t even have a generator yet, but am contemplating the 3000w Honda (EU3000iHAN). Am I wasting my time and money on this relay idea? Paid (wasted) $57.00 on this one…

ModMyRV (August 15th, 2009 at 11:41 am)

@mlbeep: when you swapped back to the original, did the motor “slowness” go back to normal? This is interesting in that the cap is only used to help start the motor. After the motor is started, the cap is removed from the circuit electronically (that’s the “E” on the end of the cap number). The only thing I can think of is that you may have swapped out the motor run cap. Doing that could result in the problem you are having. Do you have any pictures of your install?

mlbeep (August 15th, 2009 at 2:23 pm)

Swapping back returned the run to normal. I thought this was really odd but glad things returned to normal.
There were two items in the “box” under the hood of the A/C, the smaller one had two connections on top, that is what I swapped. The much larger one had a bunch of connections on top…I didn’t mess with that one. The smaller unit also says “SH P2 Capacitor EIA-458-A” on it. The A/C is a 15k Duo Therm unit. Now that I looked at the pictures above again, mine is identical…except my starter cap is silver and short but fat, barely fits in the box, not small and black. That one is dated ‘05, mine is ‘09. I don’t have pictures…but will take some…how do I post/send them? THANKS for your assistance!

ModMyRV (August 15th, 2009 at 3:29 pm)

The best way to post pictures would be in the forum. Start a new thread and we’ll try and get some answers for you.

So, here 'tis.  Correction to my previous post, this is a 15k Dometic unit.  I also note that the (what I think is) the start cap has a brown and white wire, different than the red and white in Mod #82.  What concerns me most is that the black wire does not go to the run cap… 

ANY help would be appreciated.  I hope to run this on a (yet to be purchased) Honda 3000w generator….

Outside a new 15k Dometic unit…note I only have 4 screws to mess with.


Cover off…..

Diagram on the outside of the internal box…doesn't seem to resemble what is going on inside…

Flip-down view of the inside of the internal box.

What I think is the run cap above and the start cap below…

Close-up of the (start cap)(?)

The new unit, terminals changed to work with the run cap…I thought…

All I did was remove the brown and white wires from the start cap (?) and attached them to the Supco unit.  Fired it up and the unit ran at about 1/2 speed, so I returned everything back to original…

1:14 pm
August 17, 2009


ModMyRV

Admin

Gardnerville, NV

posts 301
2

You mention that the physical wiring does not match what the wiring diagram shows. Either the diagram is not the correct one for your unit or the motor run and start caps are mis-wired. I would suggest wiring the caps in accordance with the diagram, using the original starting cap. Make sure the unit functions properly, then replace the start cap with the Supco cap according to instructions and retest.

A second (and maybe a better) option, is to have someone from the dealer you purchased the RV from confirm that it is wired correctly. Point them to this thread so you don't have to take your RV to the dealer. It's very odd that the physical wiring doesn't match up to the diagram. This is likely your problem judging by your pictures.

Anyone else have some input?

5:11 pm
August 17, 2009


mlbeep

Mod Newbie

Hoagland, IN

posts 5
3

Thanks, but…

No way I'm going to try the wiring.  The unit works just fine as-is, and since I have no clue where the wires come from or go, I'm not messing with it.

The dealer is pretty close, I'll ask them about this, but not so sure they are experts in this area.  I did a swap of the OEM thermostat with a Honeywell digital (which was also a riot) and that confused the dealer…

Hope one of the readers will know this stuff, otherwise I'll just buy a bigger generator  :)

Love this site, really helpful…

11:12 pm
August 30, 2009


Lloyd BC

Mod Newbie

posts 2
4

Since it's relatively simple for you to remove your shell, I would suggest you take a close look at where that brown wire goes. The units I've looked at (all older) have the brown wire going to the fan motor, as shown in your wiring diagram. If the brown wire goes to the fan, you're on the wrong track. Also on all the ones I've looked at, the compressor wiring is easily identified. The wiring to the compressor will be larger than that going to the fan (which is also readily identifiable). You won't need to disconnect anything to look at where the wires go. I would say it's possible that the factory has put in a separate fan run capacitor on newer units, and from the value stamped on it, I think that's what you're working with. I have in front of me a dual capacitor from a 5000btu house unit, and its fan run capacitor is 5mfd, so 10 mfd would be about right for the RV unit fan, as it's quite a bit stronger motor. For your info, I have a Yamaha EF2400iSC (2000 watt rated), and it starts my nephew's 13,500 A/C with barely a hickup, and the A/C isn't modded. However, it won't start my 13,000btu (yet - mod to come).  

3:48 pm
September 5, 2009


mlbeep

Mod Newbie

Hoagland, IN

posts 5
5

Thanks Lloyd!!!

Sorry for the delay, haven't checked back…

Makes a lot of sense to me what you say.  So, as it stands, it doesn't look like there is a Start Cap on this unit, correct?  So, the Supco unit would simply link to the larger Run Cap (leave the Fan Cap alone) but not sure how to wire.  My Run Cap has two sets of connections on top with one set not connected to anything (in case you aren't aware, click on my pictures for a larger version…)…

Guessing here, one connection from the Supco unit to the left set and the other to the right set?

VERY cautious here as I am clueless as an electrician and with a new TT, sure don't want to screw this up…

REALLY appreciate the help!!

5:41 pm
September 10, 2009


mlbeep

Mod Newbie

Hoagland, IN

posts 5
6

In case anyone is interested, I just got a Honda 3000iHAN and it started my 15k A/C while on econo mode with NO problems.  While the A/C was running we ran the TV, a few fans, a 900W Microwave, and then a 1500W hair dryer with no problems…  Quick test so no further info, but looking good. 

My only concern is that the “Handy” has a small tank, but there is a 6Gal setup available (http://wisesales.com/DurationTanks.html)(the All-Feed model for $179) and another company offers an LP conversion, contact them for the 'Handy' but they do all models…..

More later as I learn it. 

5:10 am
October 3, 2009


mlbeep

Mod Newbie

Hoagland, IN

posts 5
7

Ah HA!  Talked to a real electrician and showed him the pictures I took.  I didn't realize that the picture of the two Caps, that the larger one (the run cap for the compressor) had another set of contacts, so a third set hidden in the back of the two showing in the picture.  On that third set was where the RED wire was connected.  The electrician told me to put one wire of the SPP unit on that set of contacts, and the other on the set of contacts with all the white wires.  I did that and the unit fired up no problem.

I am waiting for another electrician to stop by and test the load on several elements on the TT (like the A/C, water heater, just the fan, etc).  It might be my imagination, but while on shore power, the A/C seemed to kick in without even trying, like there was no load at all, but tests will show.  Of course, I got this done the same day as our first frost (Indiana) so guess I'm in good shape for next year…

By the way, for those who might be considering a 3000iHAN Honda instead of the 2000w models, but are not thrilled of the small gas tank, I also got a 6 gallon tank that pumps gas into the generator, giving a LONG run time.  Got it (the “All-Feed) from here: http://wisesales.com/DurationTanks.html

Thanks to all for your help with this project.  :) 

7:01 pm
November 30, 2009


chadjones99

Mod Newbie

posts 1
8

ok is there a reason we can not just piggie back the new hard start right on top of the comprosser and leave the factory hooked up too. ?That is what I did unless someone cantell me why its not a good reason.

 think it sounds ike the AC unit is startng up wth less strain on Gen-set but cant realy tell

6:00 am
February 12, 2010


myakkatt

Mod Newbie

posts 5
9

Has anyone installed the SPP6E on a Carrier AirV 13.5 A/c. I looked in my capacitor box and there does not appear to be a start Capacitor. The scehmatic does not show one, there is a PTC small device next to large Capacitor. I would assume I just connect to the Herm and Comm and find a location for the Supco since it will not fit in the Capacitor Box? Any help is appreciated, Thanks

6:18 am
February 12, 2010


ModMyRV

Admin

Gardnerville, NV

posts 301
10

If you have by chance you have a picture, that would be worth a thousand words. I'm not familiar with the Carrier unit from a wiring standpoint, only Coleman and Dometic. From how you describe your unit, it sounds like you could add the cap as you describe. But without seeing how it's currently configured, it's hard to be sure.

11:05 am
February 12, 2010


myakkatt

Mod Newbie

posts 5
11

ModMyRV said:

If you have by chance you have a picture, that would be worth a thousand words. I'm not familiar with the Carrier unit from a wiring standpoint, only Coleman and Dometic. From how you describe your unit, it sounds like you could add the cap as you describe. But without seeing how it's currently configured, it's hard to be sure.

I do not have a actual pic at this time, but attahced is the schematic and a pic from the manual that almost shows the run capacitor for the Carrier. Hope this is any help to you..

Edit by admin on 3/24/2010 at 11:03 am.

7:23 pm
February 12, 2010


ModMyRV

Admin

Gardnerville, NV

posts 301
12

Do you have the low profile or standard profile unit? It is my understanding that the low profile unit does not come with a start cap. According to your schematic, you would connect the cap to the red and the blue wires, in parallel with the motor run cap.

3:59 am
February 13, 2010


myakkatt

Mod Newbie

posts 5
13

We have the standard ducted unit. I do not see a start capacitor in it. I did install the cap as you mentioned, unit runs fine not sure if it changed the way it starts on my yamaha 2400. It does start but does pull a load with everyhting off except converter. Thanks for your help..

10:37 am
March 24, 2010


ywgclarke

Mod Newbie

posts 3
14

The confusion about which capacitor to use is aggravated by the fact that the gent who wrote it talks about the SPP6E, but at the bottom of the article has a link going to Amazon.com that links to a SPP6. SUPCO specs say that the E series has an electronically controlled cut out to remove the capacitor from the circuit when it has “sensed” the unit has started. This sensing circuit is VOLTAGE sensing and not Current sensing according to there specs. It also states the recommended voltage is 170-277V, but then shows the Operating voltage as 90-277V. If you go to there E Class comparison page it states the voltage  as 90-277V but the Capacitance as 88-106uF @ 250V for the SPP6E. I would suggest that a device that senses voltage and not current to remove it from the circuit should be used in the recommended range. In my opinion that makes this the wrong Cap. The SPP4E is rated as 90-130V and 88-106uF @ 110V, which in my opinion makes this the correct E type capacitor for this application.

However the straight SPP6 capacitor at half the price has a voltage rating of from 90-277 volts and  88_106uF @ 110V and is not voltage sensing, but uses ta ceramic Positive Temperature Coefficient Relay (PTCR) which is the better technology than my original Cap had (as a separate pice called a WSX-7 motor starter which was a bi-metallic coil). 

For less money the SPP6 appears to solve the hard start/ low voltage issue, with a far less sensitive device that the E class capacitor….. just my opinion.  ywgclarke.

2:57 pm
March 23, 2011


QZDesertRat

Mod Newbie

posts 1
15

I installed an SPP6E hard start capacitor, piggy-backing it across the starting capacitor terminals on my Penquin Duo-Therm a/c unit. I'm using a Yamaha 2400 watt inverter-generator to try and keep us cool in the summer. Without the hard start capacitor it was a sure no-go; generator revved up to full blast, finally timed out and tripped the breaker.

With the capacitor installed I at first thought things weren't going to work out either. My line voltage in the RV dropped from 121 volts down to about 46, and hung there for what seemed like forever. I suppose forever really translated to a few seconds. Of course the blower fan in the a/c stopped working, and then all of a sudden, the compressor kicked over and the blower fan came back up. Shore ppower reading steadied out at 119 volts. 

Of course it does this same, gut-wrenching song and dance every time the compressor cycles on; is this something I need to learn to live with, or is there something else I'm missing. I dunno if my old ticker will take the “everthing dies for a bit, then gets resurrected” thing for a long road trip.

Now that I look at it, maybe I did a dumb-dumb. I did piggy-back this new cap to the old starting capacitor. Should I have just junked the old capacitor and stuck the new one in it's stead? Doing that will require some kind of terminal adaptation.
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